Talk:Etenne

MediaWiki, scope, etc.

Hey Etenne,

Thanks for setting up the account. I notice BoyWiki uses a fairly old version of MediaWiki, 1.13. There's a new version coming out, 1.23, that's pretty good: "With 1.23, MediaWiki starts to behave more like a modern website as regards notifications, to keep the editors of your wiki engaged and always up to date about what interests them. This used to require several custom settings." I can help you guys with configuration if you want the help, as I've owned and operated numerous wikis, contributed core patches, and developed extensions. If you would like any custom extensions developed, please let me know.

Also, I was wondering how broad the scope of the wiki can be. As the Newgon article nature of the problem points out, "Youth rights and participation must be an integral part of our eventual activism (without a broader movement to fall back on, we are doomed)". How far into the topic of youth rights in general can we venture without being off-topic for this wiki?

Public Activism (Options for Closeted BoyLovers) notes, "But if you want to legalize child sex, it's inevitable that you will have to argue youth rights. All ageist laws are based on an understanding that youth are incapable, untermenschen in wait to become full human. For instance, advocates against ADHD drugs have to make the argument that children have self-ownership. The argument logically ends by also having self-ownership for sex."

Not only does it make it easier to argue for sexual freedom when other youth rights have been granted, but it also makes relationships with young friends more convenient when they have more rights. For example, if young people are allowed to drive around, then it's easier to get together with them; if they are allowed to hold jobs, then it can make money less of a problem in the relationship; and so on.

Also, what about girls? Is there growing recognition that the girllover and boylover communities should work together? Or is the topic of girllove best reserved for Newgon, ChildWiki, etc.? Unfortunately, I haven't been able to get hold of the people in charge of Newgon to request an account; if you are able to help me with that, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Leucosticte 23:44, 25 March 2014 (GMT)

---

@Leucosticte

Yes, we are going to upgrade any day now. During that time, BoyWiki will be offline for about 4 days.

As to the topic of Girllove.... I agree that is not appropriate for BoyWiki as we are more specialized. However, I think we can make some exceptions where our mutual concerns overlap.

I don't know anyone from Newgon or I would have been happy to help.

--Etenne 00:07, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

If you want to be able to import the latest templates from Wikipedia, then Scribunto will also be useful. Leucosticte 15:12, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

---

I will look into it. Right now, I am focused on getting the current bugs worked out and making sure it is secure. I did a test user block this morning which worked fine (our tech person seems to know what he is doing:) I was worried that some of the "tinkering" that was done may have messed it up but no, I can still ban the bad guys:)

--Etenne 15:35, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

On Mises Wiki, we upgraded a year or two ago to an apparently broken version of MediaWiki that didn't allow blocks or page protections. For several months, those features were out of order but no major harm was caused because apparently nobody cared enough about the wiki to vandalize it, or they didn't realize it was vulnerable. As for the spammers, they tended not to use the same account or IP more than once anyway. BoyWiki of course will always be a potential target of haters, at least until a more enlightened or laid back future arrives. Leucosticte 15:54, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

Etenne's rant for the day

I have had quite a morning already.... I woke up to no power and no heat! I need more coffee!

Like I said, the new wiki is coming:) But you have to understand that everything here is done by volunteers and people get things done at their own pace... sometimes right away and sometimes a week or two latter. Therefore, progress is slow. We are mostly done...just some things need to be tweaked. The last mile does seem to be the longest:(

--Etenne 16:13, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

We've been out of coffee over here for more than a week, so that I've had to resort to decaf tea just for the sake of having some warm beverage. But yeah, waking up without power or heat pretty much takes the cake, as far as unpleasant inconveniences go.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to rush you or anything. I actually think this wiki is pretty good, tech-wise; site performance is pretty good and you've got a pretty lightweight (i.e. non-bloated) configuration set up, it looks like. I also think it has some advantages, administration-wise, compared to, say, Conservapedia or RationalWiki. At least BoyWiki doesn't lock people out at night and ban them for questionable reasons. It also has advantages over Wikipedia, as you pointed out in your BoyChat post. It's really a breath of fresh air to be able to participate in a wiki that's friendly to child/youth sexual liberation and has more users than just me.

With reference to BoyWiki being "the voice of a single person", I admire that you had the passion and tenacity to stay the course when it was, perhaps, kinda lonely here. I have been in that situation many times. The first time it happened was on Libertapedia, in April 2009. All the other active users (about three people) got disgruntled and left, so that it was just me running the place. Perhaps I gave up on that project too easily, and let the wiki go to ruin when I could have found a way to put it on autopilot instead. It seems that if you stay the course long enough, other users will often eventually show up.

A friend of mine who runs a wiki hosting company writes, "In a wiki environment building and working with a community is probably the hardest part. I have worked on several wiki projects and building as well as working with the community was the most challenging part. It is frustrating if the community does not build up and on the other hand it is very frustrating to deal with the community since it tends to develop a life of its own. It is really hard work to have a healthy community. If you don't have this morale is likely to sink the more time passes." Leucosticte 16:29, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

---

Thanks for the compliments.

To be frank, I have never had a problem with my own morale because I have always held the position that so long as BoyWiki is a little better every day (whether it had users or not) I was fine with that. BoyWiki doesn't have to be a better wiki than anyone else.... It simply has to be better then it was yesterday:)

---

@Etenne:

It is easy to make a small, temporary alcohol stove for making "emergency" coffee. A empty tuna-fish can , with two table-knives across the top of it (careful - use old knives as they may discolor from the heat OR use tin foil scrunched into thin cylinders) and then with a little alcohol (takes experience to know how much - maybe 4 or 5 tablespoons of alcohol) poured into the can, and then a very small pan (one that holds less than two or three cups of water - but only put half a cup or so of water into the pan) then set on top of the knives (or foil cylinders), then the whole thing placed in the bathroom sink (for safety if the thing spills burning alcohol), then set the alcohol in the tuna can on fire, cover the pan, let the water heat (does not have to boil) then use the water to make coffee either by putting coffee grounds into the water, leaving for several minutes, and then straining through a strainer (you can even just let the coffee grounds settle for a few minutes if you do not have a strainer, then pour into a cup), or by putting so-called "instant coffee powder" (yech! that is not "coffee"!) in it and then - voila! - hot coffee!

I have done the above many times. :- )

Oh, where do we put bug reports or suggestions about things needing improving?

For example, the following URL:

en.test.boywiki.org/wiki/Portal:Boylove_News_Channel

... needs a redirect to:

en.boywiki.org/wiki/Portal:Boylove_News_Channel

... because Google has cached many articles from the "test" URL and users clicking the Google link find that the test URL never loads.

Also, there are some "advisories" which should be included in the "Search" page, to help users search better.

@Leucosticte

AND

@ Etenne

I think part of the problem for BoyWiki is to make user contributions easier by breaking requests for content into "little chunks" which users can provide easily, for example by responding to posts on BoyChat.

If a question were posed on BoyChat, for example:

BoyChat post: "Anybody know who did blah-blah-blah/when blah-blah-blah happened." "Yeah, it was so-and-so/it happened at such-and-such time." "Can I add that to BoyWiki?" "Sure." "Oh, if you have any more info, you are welcome to edit the article on blah-blah-blah which mentions blah-blah-blah." "OK - I will do that...

Then give that poster a "nick" to edit BoyWiki.

This could slyly "rope in" an (unsuspecting) BoyChat poster, and get him to become an editor.

What do you think?

User4 18:47, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

--- re test wiki

That should clear in time now that the test wiki is deleted (I think).

Yes, a redirect would have been a good idea but somethings are beyond my control. You have to understand that the bureaucracy to get anything done around here is extremely difficult to navigate. Like I said, when the new wiki come online.... I will see what I can do. That unfortunately is the best answer I can give. There is no fixing what we have got.... We are simply happy with what we are given:)

--Etenne 19:13, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

---

@Anyone

I need a mediawik link for the sandbox thing. I can't find an extension with exactly that name. Can you give a link to mediawiki.org?

--Etenne 21:04, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

"(The Google cache problem) should clear in time now that the test wiki is deleted (I think). "

Uh, no. I am almost certain that it will not "clear in time". Even years from now. Really. I have a brown-belt in "Google-fu" so I think I should know.

OK - that was 1 of my 4 points.

1) Is that coffee idea worthwhile?

2)Oh, where do we put bug reports or suggestions about things needing improving?

3) Redirects: you answered that.

4) Suggestion for "roping in" new editors.

(User4 sits impatiently, while tapping his fingers on his desk, waiting...)

https://git.wikimedia.org/

OR MAYBE

https://wikimedia.org/

User4 21:18, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

--- 1) Is that coffee idea worthwhile?

• yes but the power is back on now and I am far to lazy to do that when there is a store across the street.

2)Oh, where do we put bug reports or suggestions about things needing improving?

• You could always email Bron but I doubt his response would be any different then mine. Fix what you are able to fix yourself and the rest we may just have to learn to live with. I don't have a better answer. I have enough trouble getting anyone to do what HAS to be done.... geting people too do what should be done is next to impossible.

3) Redirects: you answered that.

4) Suggestion for "roping in" new editors.

• I have tried that to some extent with not much success.

I am still not finding how to set up this sandbox thing... is it done with an extension or a series of templates?

"where do we put bug reports or suggestions about things needing improving?" Ideally, IssueTracker or Bugzilla; in its absence, I guess Project:Bug reports? Then, as Etenne notes, you can bring the whole page to Bron's (or whoever's) attention, and they can either do the stuff or ignore it. But at least you wrote it down somewhere before you forgot about it. Also, if you post it on-wiki, we might be able to collaborate to figure out what exactly to ask tech support to do (e.g. what config settings we need changed).

"Google has cached many articles from the 'test' URL and users clicking the Google link find that the test URL never loads." The solution is to use robots.txt to keep Google from caching anything from the test wiki.

"This could slyly 'rope in' an (unsuspecting) BoyChat poster, and get him to become an editor." It sounds like a good idea, but in practice it tends to be hard to get most people to edit wikis. Usually people would rather say "Can you add this to the wiki?"

The only two sandbox extensions I know about are these two. Neither is needed in order to create and use a sandbox page. Is there some extra functionality you're looking for that we don't have now? I may have completely misunderstood what was being asked...

The coffee idea sounds complicated, but addictions can drive people to considerable lengths. Leucosticte 22:04, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

---

Do not know if this is useful:

Google:

sandbox site:mediawiki.org

Here is the URL to click on:

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=&bih=&q=sandbox+site%3Amediawiki.org&btnG=Google+Search&gbv=1

From the results, maybe this:

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Template:Wikipedia/sandbox

User4 22:14, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

RE:

"This could slyly 'rope in' an (unsuspecting) BoyChat poster, and get him to become an editor." It sounds like a good idea, but in practice it tends to be hard to get most people to edit wikis. Usually people would rather say "Can you add this to the wiki?"

How about just inviting people on BC to submit info on various topics in their posts, with the understanding that the info will be included in BoyWiki?

User4 22:47, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

What to do about Newgon Wiki

I propose that we do one of two things.

1. add a new interwiki prefix, I guess newgonwiki:, for Newgon Wiki. Then when we link to it, we can use either that prefix or a template, e.g. Template:NewgonWiki. If Newgon Wiki ever gets taken down, we can just change that interwiki prefix to lead to either the Internet Archive URL or the successor wiki. Otherwise, all those links will break in such a scenario. --or--
2. import everything Newgon Wiki has that we think is useful. They won't be changing any of it anymore, so if it's going to be improved, it's up to people like us.

Leucosticte 22:21, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

---

OIC, it is disabled. I was told that their host was having problems contacting the owner of that site.

--Etenne 22:40, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

---

@Leucosticte Can you explain to me how to set up a sandbox?.... I have never used it and I don't really know anything about it.

--Etenne 22:23, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

Isn't it just a page like Project:Sandbox, or User:Etenne/Sandbox, where people play around with wikitext without creating a bunch of pages that will have to be deleted? Is there something more that you're trying to do? Leucosticte 22:31, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

@Leucosticte

Seems to me that almost everything on Newgon wiki is relevant.

No?

User4 22:39, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

---

Here is something on allowing/disallowing HTML tags on wikis.

https://git.wikimedia.org/blob/mediawiki%2Fextensions%2FHTMLTags/3c2c104f877d1216dbd8a47dcce18cf4efe83954/README

You may already know all about that, but still it may be good to just scan it.

Oh, is breaking your talk page into sections such a good idea? This comment is not relevant to this section heading. Should I create a new one?

And from the watchlist, how would one know what has been added - and to which section - without all the hassle of looking up the history?

User4 00:24, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

"Seems to me that almost everything on Newgon wiki is relevant." So what do you want to do? Mass import? I created a little guide to doing that. It should only need to be done one time, since no further updates will be made to Newgon. Leucosticte 01:07, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

---

"Seems to me that almost everything...

Importing wholesale is a question for Etenne. But then all the internal links become a problem, don't they? If the page linked to does not exist on BoyWiki then users may be frustrated to discover the empty pages, no?

User4 01:33, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

Deletion of this page

Are you planning to delete this page periodically? I think it would be better to archive it. That way people can see the history of what was already asked and answered, etc. Leucosticte 01:10, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

RE: Deletion of the page.

I agree. All pages should be archived. Often I need to look something up that I have mentioned somewhere, and I may remember where I mentioned it and then go back - but if the information has "disappeared" I become very frustrated. :- (

User4 01:33, 27 March 2014 (GMT)