Talk:Etenne

MediaWiki, scope, etc.

Hey Etenne,

Thanks for setting up the account. I notice BoyWiki uses a fairly old version of MediaWiki, 1.13. There's a new version coming out, 1.23, that's pretty good: "With 1.23, MediaWiki starts to behave more like a modern website as regards notifications, to keep the editors of your wiki engaged and always up to date about what interests them. This used to require several custom settings." I can help you guys with configuration if you want the help, as I've owned and operated numerous wikis, contributed core patches, and developed extensions. If you would like any custom extensions developed, please let me know.

Also, I was wondering how broad the scope of the wiki can be. As the Newgon article nature of the problem points out, "Youth rights and participation must be an integral part of our eventual activism (without a broader movement to fall back on, we are doomed)". How far into the topic of youth rights in general can we venture without being off-topic for this wiki?

Public Activism (Options for Closeted BoyLovers) notes, "But if you want to legalize child sex, it's inevitable that you will have to argue youth rights. All ageist laws are based on an understanding that youth are incapable, untermenschen in wait to become full human. For instance, advocates against ADHD drugs have to make the argument that children have self-ownership. The argument logically ends by also having self-ownership for sex."

Not only does it make it easier to argue for sexual freedom when other youth rights have been granted, but it also makes relationships with young friends more convenient when they have more rights. For example, if young people are allowed to drive around, then it's easier to get together with them; if they are allowed to hold jobs, then it can make money less of a problem in the relationship; and so on.

Also, what about girls? Is there growing recognition that the girllover and boylover communities should work together? Or is the topic of girllove best reserved for Newgon, ChildWiki, etc.? Unfortunately, I haven't been able to get hold of the people in charge of Newgon to request an account; if you are able to help me with that, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Leucosticte 23:44, 25 March 2014 (GMT)

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@Leucosticte

Yes, we are going to upgrade any day now. During that time, BoyWiki will be offline for about 4 days.

As to the topic of Girllove.... I agree that is not appropriate for BoyWiki as we are more specialized. However, I think we can make some exceptions where our mutual concerns overlap.

I don't know anyone from Newgon or I would have been happy to help.

--Etenne 00:07, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

If you want to be able to import the latest templates from Wikipedia, then Scribunto will also be useful. Leucosticte 15:12, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

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I will look into it. Right now, I am focused on getting the current bugs worked out and making sure it is secure. I did a test user block this morning which worked fine (our tech person seems to know what he is doing:) I was worried that some of the "tinkering" that was done may have messed it up but no, I can still ban the bad guys:)

--Etenne 15:35, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

On Mises Wiki, we upgraded a year or two ago to an apparently broken version of MediaWiki that didn't allow blocks or page protections. For several months, those features were out of order but no major harm was caused because apparently nobody cared enough about the wiki to vandalize it, or they didn't realize it was vulnerable. As for the spammers, they tended not to use the same account or IP more than once anyway. BoyWiki of course will always be a potential target of haters, at least until a more enlightened or laid back future arrives. Leucosticte 15:54, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

Etenne's rant for the day

I have had quite a morning already.... I woke up to no power and no heat! I need more coffee!

Like I said, the new wiki is coming:) But you have to understand that everything here is done by volunteers and people get things done at their own pace... sometimes right away and sometimes a week or two latter. Therefore, progress is slow. We are mostly done...just some things need to be tweaked. The last mile does seem to be the longest:(

--Etenne 16:13, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

We've been out of coffee over here for more than a week, so that I've had to resort to decaf tea just for the sake of having some warm beverage. But yeah, waking up without power or heat pretty much takes the cake, as far as unpleasant inconveniences go.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to rush you or anything. I actually think this wiki is pretty good, tech-wise; site performance is pretty good and you've got a pretty lightweight (i.e. non-bloated) configuration set up, it looks like. I also think it has some advantages, administration-wise, compared to, say, Conservapedia or RationalWiki. At least BoyWiki doesn't lock people out at night and ban them for questionable reasons. It also has advantages over Wikipedia, as you pointed out in your BoyChat post. It's really a breath of fresh air to be able to participate in a wiki that's friendly to child/youth sexual liberation and has more users than just me.

With reference to BoyWiki being "the voice of a single person", I admire that you had the passion and tenacity to stay the course when it was, perhaps, kinda lonely here. I have been in that situation many times. The first time it happened was on Libertapedia, in April 2009. All the other active users (about three people) got disgruntled and left, so that it was just me running the place. Perhaps I gave up on that project too easily, and let the wiki go to ruin when I could have found a way to put it on autopilot instead. It seems that if you stay the course long enough, other users will often eventually show up.

A friend of mine who runs a wiki hosting company writes, "In a wiki environment building and working with a community is probably the hardest part. I have worked on several wiki projects and building as well as working with the community was the most challenging part. It is frustrating if the community does not build up and on the other hand it is very frustrating to deal with the community since it tends to develop a life of its own. It is really hard work to have a healthy community. If you don't have this morale is likely to sink the more time passes." Leucosticte 16:29, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

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Thanks for the compliments.

To be frank, I have never had a problem with my own morale because I have always held the position that so long as BoyWiki is a little better every day (whether it had users or not) I was fine with that. BoyWiki doesn't have to be a better wiki than anyone else.... It simply has to be better then it was yesterday:)

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@Etenne:

It is easy to make a small, temporary alcohol stove for making "emergency" coffee. A empty tuna-fish can , with two table-knives across the top of it (careful - use old knives as they may discolor from the heat OR use tin foil scrunched into thin cylinders) and then with a little alcohol (takes experience to know how much - maybe 4 or 5 tablespoons of alcohol) poured into the can, and then a very small pan (one that holds less than two or three cups of water - but only put half a cup or so of water into the pan) then set on top of the knives (or foil cylinders), then the whole thing placed in the bathroom sink (for safety if the thing spills burning alcohol), then set the alcohol in the tuna can on fire, cover the pan, let the water heat (does not have to boil) then use the water to make coffee either by putting coffee grounds into the water, leaving for several minutes, and then straining through a strainer (you can even just let the coffee grounds settle for a few minutes if you do not have a strainer, then pour into a cup), or by putting so-called "instant coffee powder" (yech! that is not "coffee"!) in it and then - voila! - hot coffee!

I have done the above many times. :- )

Oh, where do we put bug reports or suggestions about things needing improving?

For example, the following URL:

en.test.boywiki.org/wiki/Portal:Boylove_News_Channel

... needs a redirect to:

en.boywiki.org/wiki/Portal:Boylove_News_Channel

... because Google has cached many articles from the "test" URL and users clicking the Google link find that the test URL never loads.

Also, there are some "advisories" which should be included in the "Search" page, to help users search better.

@Leucosticte

AND

@ Etenne

I think part of the problem for BoyWiki is to make user contributions easier by breaking requests for content into "little chunks" which users can provide easily, for example by responding to posts on BoyChat.

If a question were posed on BoyChat, for example:

BoyChat post: "Anybody know who did blah-blah-blah/when blah-blah-blah happened." "Yeah, it was so-and-so/it happened at such-and-such time." "Can I add that to BoyWiki?" "Sure." "Oh, if you have any more info, you are welcome to edit the article on blah-blah-blah which mentions blah-blah-blah." "OK - I will do that...

Then give that poster a "nick" to edit BoyWiki.

This could slyly "rope in" an (unsuspecting) BoyChat poster, and get him to become an editor.

What do you think?

User4 18:47, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

--- re test wiki

That should clear in time now that the test wiki is deleted (I think).

Yes, a redirect would have been a good idea but somethings are beyond my control. You have to understand that the bureaucracy to get anything done around here is extremely difficult to navigate. Like I said, when the new wiki come online.... I will see what I can do. That unfortunately is the best answer I can give. There is no fixing what we have got.... We are simply happy with what we are given:)

--Etenne 19:13, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

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@Anyone

I need a mediawik link for the sandbox thing. I can't find an extension with exactly that name. Can you give a link to mediawiki.org?

--Etenne 21:04, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

"(The Google cache problem) should clear in time now that the test wiki is deleted (I think). "

Uh, no. I am almost certain that it will not "clear in time". Even years from now. Really. I have a brown-belt in "Google-fu" so I think I should know.

OK - that was 1 of my 4 points.

1) Is that coffee idea worthwhile?

2)Oh, where do we put bug reports or suggestions about things needing improving?

3) Redirects: you answered that.

4) Suggestion for "roping in" new editors.

(User4 sits impatiently, while tapping his fingers on his desk, waiting...)

https://git.wikimedia.org/

OR MAYBE

https://wikimedia.org/

User4 21:18, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

--- 1) Is that coffee idea worthwhile?

• yes but the power is back on now and I am far to lazy to do that when there is a store across the street.

2)Oh, where do we put bug reports or suggestions about things needing improving?

• You could always email Bron but I doubt his response would be any different then mine. Fix what you are able to fix yourself and the rest we may just have to learn to live with. I don't have a better answer. I have enough trouble getting anyone to do what HAS to be done.... geting people too do what should be done is next to impossible.

3) Redirects: you answered that.

4) Suggestion for "roping in" new editors.

• I have tried that to some extent with not much success.

I am still not finding how to set up this sandbox thing... is it done with an extension or a series of templates?

"where do we put bug reports or suggestions about things needing improving?" Ideally, IssueTracker or Bugzilla; in its absence, I guess Project:Bug reports? Then, as Etenne notes, you can bring the whole page to Bron's (or whoever's) attention, and they can either do the stuff or ignore it. But at least you wrote it down somewhere before you forgot about it. Also, if you post it on-wiki, we might be able to collaborate to figure out what exactly to ask tech support to do (e.g. what config settings we need changed).

"Google has cached many articles from the 'test' URL and users clicking the Google link find that the test URL never loads." The solution is to use robots.txt to keep Google from caching anything from the test wiki.

"This could slyly 'rope in' an (unsuspecting) BoyChat poster, and get him to become an editor." It sounds like a good idea, but in practice it tends to be hard to get most people to edit wikis. Usually people would rather say "Can you add this to the wiki?"

The only two sandbox extensions I know about are these two. Neither is needed in order to create and use a sandbox page. Is there some extra functionality you're looking for that we don't have now? I may have completely misunderstood what was being asked...

The coffee idea sounds complicated, but addictions can drive people to considerable lengths. Leucosticte 22:04, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

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Do not know if this is useful:

Google:

sandbox site:mediawiki.org

Here is the URL to click on:

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=&bih=&q=sandbox+site%3Amediawiki.org&btnG=Google+Search&gbv=1

From the results, maybe this:

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Template:Wikipedia/sandbox

User4 22:14, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

RE:

"This could slyly 'rope in' an (unsuspecting) BoyChat poster, and get him to become an editor." It sounds like a good idea, but in practice it tends to be hard to get most people to edit wikis. Usually people would rather say "Can you add this to the wiki?"

How about just inviting people on BC to submit info on various topics in their posts, with the understanding that the info will be included in BoyWiki?

User4 22:47, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

What to do about Newgon Wiki

I propose that we do one of two things.

1. add a new interwiki prefix, I guess newgonwiki:, for Newgon Wiki. Then when we link to it, we can use either that prefix or a template, e.g. Template:NewgonWiki. If Newgon Wiki ever gets taken down, we can just change that interwiki prefix to lead to either the Internet Archive URL or the successor wiki. Otherwise, all those links will break in such a scenario. --or--
2. import everything Newgon Wiki has that we think is useful. They won't be changing any of it anymore, so if it's going to be improved, it's up to people like us.

Leucosticte 22:21, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

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OIC, it is disabled. I was told that their host was having problems contacting the owner of that site.

--Etenne 22:40, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

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@Leucosticte Can you explain to me how to set up a sandbox?.... I have never used it and I don't really know anything about it.

--Etenne 22:23, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

Isn't it just a page like Project:Sandbox, or User:Etenne/Sandbox, where people play around with wikitext without creating a bunch of pages that will have to be deleted? Is there something more that you're trying to do? Leucosticte 22:31, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

@Leucosticte

Seems to me that almost everything on Newgon wiki is relevant.

No?

User4 22:39, 26 March 2014 (GMT)

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Here is something on allowing/disallowing HTML tags on wikis.

https://git.wikimedia.org/blob/mediawiki%2Fextensions%2FHTMLTags/3c2c104f877d1216dbd8a47dcce18cf4efe83954/README

You may already know all about that, but still it may be good to just scan it.

Oh, is breaking your talk page into sections such a good idea? This comment is not relevant to this section heading. Should I create a new one?

And from the watchlist, how would one know what has been added - and to which section - without all the hassle of looking up the history?

User4 00:24, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

"Seems to me that almost everything on Newgon wiki is relevant." So what do you want to do? Mass import? I created a little guide to doing that. It should only need to be done one time, since no further updates will be made to Newgon. Leucosticte 01:07, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

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"Seems to me that almost everything...

Importing wholesale is a question for Etenne. But then all the internal links become a problem, don't they? If the page linked to does not exist on BoyWiki then users may be frustrated to discover the empty pages, no?

User4 01:33, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

If you import wholesale, then the linked pages will exist because you're importing everything, including the pages they linked to. Unless of course the linked pages didn't exist on Newgon Wiki either, or they linked to namespaces that we wouldn't be importing. Leucosticte 01:56, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

Deletion of this page

Are you planning to delete this page periodically? I think it would be better to archive it. That way people can see the history of what was already asked and answered, etc. Leucosticte 01:10, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

RE: Deletion of the page.

I agree. All pages should be archived. Often I need to look something up that I have mentioned somewhere, and I may remember where I mentioned it and then go back - but if the information has "disappeared" I become very frustrated. :- (

User4 01:33, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

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Unless the page is deleted, all you need to do is look at the page history to find something that has been removed. Even if a page is deleted, all you need to do is ask me and I can restore it.

--Etenne 01:52, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

Oh, can you restore the one from earlier? Thanks. Leucosticte 01:54, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

you mean what blanked today of the conversation between me and User4 about making pizza?--Etenne 02:10, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

No, this was a deletion of 28 February. I don't know if there was anything important in there, since I can't read it; I just thought it would be good as a general principle to save it for posterity, unless it's something bad that has to be suppressed. Leucosticte 03:12, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

"save it for posterity"

I doubt anyone anywhere really wants to know anything I say.... most of the time things on this page are just chitchat. --Etenne (talk) 16:49, 28 March 2014 (CET)

HTTPS error

1) Previously, I installed all the certs for BoyWiki from the FS page (as you instructed).

Since the "software update" I get an error when I first log on (I think only then) about certs not being authorized.

On other pages (like this edit now) I am using HTTPS without any problem, and without an "error".

I am "the paranoid type" and am always very suspicious of changes to my browser behavior that I don't expect, especially as it relates to boy-sensitive sites.

Also, I would like to know what the "keep me logged in" selection on the log-in page does. Is it a cookie? I notice now that I am automatically logged out very quickly (I have not chosen to "keep me logged in". Previously, it seemed the auto log-out took place after maybe 6 or 8 hours. Now it is much much shorter.

2) Please advise me of any new templates which have been installed which affect editing. I need to know what to include/not include in the Editing Guide.

3) Thanks for your complete response to my mail message.

4)If "R" is one of the tech guys, I know exactly what you mean... Almost impossible to work with him... :- (

5) Oh, and welcome back! ;- )

User4 (talk) 10:35, 1 April 2014 (CEST)

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1. The old self signed certs are no longer needed. We have a new valid cert for all of Boywiki

2. no new templates have been added but some things that did not work before should now work.

--Etenne (talk) 12:03, 1 April 2014 (CEST)

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Question: Do old bookmarks need to be changed? Seems the URL is slightly different now...

Ah - but exactly WHAT that wouldn't work before should work now? Uh, to try EVERY possible combination of every option to discover those things would be a bit time consuming, don't you agree? P~

User4 (talk) 13:26, 1 April 2014 (CEST)

Yeah, the URL scheme was changed from en.boywiki.org/wiki/$1 to www.boywiki.org/en/$1 . There are allegedly some advantages to the former scheme, but whatever. Leucosticte (talk) 13:40, 1 April 2014 (CEST)

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@Leucosticte: Thanks. I'll check that out.

Aside: You know, if I were responsible for a web site, and I changed the URL, I would be certain to inform the users of the site of that fact. But maybe I'm just crazy, right? Apparently, the ones who are responsible for BW do not feel the same way. Strange, no? snark snark snark...

@Etenne:

Is "User4" a category? Can I create pages which are listed in the "User4" category? If not, why not?

And wouldn't it be a good idea if it were possible?

I tried with the "Filip" page but it did not work.

User4 (talk) 13:54, 1 April 2014 (CEST)

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The answer to all the questions (for right now is)

1. I am so tired I can't see straight

2. I am still working on other things right now and am feeling overwhelmed.

3. I can't do everything:)

--Etenne (talk) 14:05, 1 April 2014 (CEST)

I hope you are feeling better. When you get the chance, maybe you could address some of the questions above? Thanks. User4 (talk) 11:27, 3 April 2014 (CEST)

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To answer some of the questions:

1.Do old bookmarks need to be changed? yes, they do.

2. WHAT that wouldn't work before should work now? That is a very complicated question but in a nutshell, this is a newer version of wiki... in the old version some of the newer templates would not work etc... I am not sure myself of all the differences but if you really want to know you will have to do a web search about what are the differences between wiki versions as well as between the monobook skin and the Vector skin.

You added Category:User4 but no, you didn't go to that page to hit save to create it as a new category. As for the rest, I am not sure what you are asking?

--Etenne (talk) 12:28, 3 April 2014 (CEST)

It might be possible to set up a rewrite rule in .htaccess to redirect links from the old scheme to the new scheme. Leucosticte (talk) 18:22, 3 April 2014 (CEST)

Right now, what I am working on is getting the Agora reset up and the vector css working as it should:) Along with all the other work that I have to do..... you how it feels when you move in to a new house? Well, there you go... that is what it is like. I have so many boxes to unpack that I don't know where to start:)

--Etenne (talk) 22:33, 3 April 2014 (CEST)

The navigation pane

... does not have a link to the encyclopedia. Is there a (good) reason for this? Just wondering...

User4 (talk) 12:37, 5 April 2014 (CEST)

Making sense of BoyWiki

"Common sense" is something that is "intuitive". BoyWiki should "be intuitive" (make sense) to users. At this point, it really doesn't. This discourages readers as well as contributors.

I am trying to find a way - within the limitations of the wiki format - to make things "make sense" to the readers and the contributors. Most people don't have the time/inclination/skills to comb through BW to find the good materials it contains. That is one reason why BW is criticized so fiercely by some.

BW just "doesn't make sense" to the average person. Wiki software was designed by computer programmers, and NOT by educators. This is also often a serious problem in the field of education - the ones creating the computer programs which make the information accessible don't think like "normal folk" and so they often design software which is basically unusable to regular people.

I am (along with working on a large number of other, unrelated-to-BW things) working on this problem here.

I will find a way to make BW user-friendly! But I may stumble along the way.

My bad...

User4 (talk) 13:18, 5 April 2014 (CEST)

The main way people find wiki content is through Google or from links from other websites, social media, etc. Unfortunately, most people are probably not going to link from their websites or social media to BoyWiki, which in turn probably hurts our pagerank. But we can still create some useful portals (perhaps the entry point can be listed on the sidebar and/or the main page) and such to make the content more accessible to people who find their way here and start browsing.

Categorization, wikilinks, etc. too are very important in helping people find useful content, so it's good to do the usual work of looking for orphan articles and dead-end pages and creating links to/from them where appropriate; looking for uncategorized pages and adding them to categories; etc. Actually it looks like I'm the main one who's been adding uncategorized pages lately, but I'm not really all that familiar with the categorization scheme here yet. Leucosticte (talk) 18:21, 5 April 2014 (CEST)

For example, people see, "Information about blah blah blah is here [click the link].

So they click, only to be given another set of (often impenetrable) links to choose from. They click on one (somewhat randomly), and then are given YET ANOTHER set of (often impenetrable) links to choose from! At this point they say, "Fuck you, your wiki, and the ass you rode in on!" and leave.

People want to click a link to something, and find what they are looking for on the page which loads next. NOT another "menu" of links to click. Do you know what I mean?

Welcome to "Alphabet_Explainer.com"
  We give useful information about the alphabet.
     (Click here to continue)
  *CLICK*
     (Which alphabet of the following?)
  *CLICKS ENGLISH*
     (Which letter? Choose from the following:)
  *CLICKS LETTER "A"*
     - The letter "A" is the first letter of the alphabet. It looks like inverted ox-horns.
         Thank you for visiting "What is "Letter A" on "Alphabet_Explainer.com"
          (Click here to return to the home page.)

• SCREAMS, TEARS AT HAIR, AND TURNS OFF COMPUTER*

It's nice to have things organized in "directories" and "sub-directories", but if all the information can fit onto one page, and then scrolling down will locate it, THAT is the most efficient way to present the information. IMHO.

When you click a link, you should find useful information. NOT another series of menus, if at all avoidable (and it often IS avoidable).

No muss, no fuss. Just the information "at your fingertips". NOT information "readily accessible" after "only 5- or ten-more-clicks". Only to find that it was not the info you were actually looking for! User4 (talk) 19:12, 5 April 2014 (CEST)

Categories

Category:Index is the root category. Encyclopedia, Entertainment, and life are it's main subcategories. Activism, Boys,Chronology and Births are new categories which I am trying to build. All the rest are administrative categories. --Etenne (talk) 00:24, 6 April 2014 (CEST)

The (article) "data" exists only as individual entries within a database. To make sense of the database data, categories must be created by the users when editing/creating articles. The user-created categories create relationships between the different bits of information within the database, and thereby create "useful information" out of the "raw data" within the database.

The skill of the user determines whether the categories created/assigned to articles then are "useful" and "make sense" to the readers of BW. A hierarchical system of categories allows the data to be accessed in many different ways, creating different "relationships" according to how the data relate to each other.

Sometimes a reader may wish to see all entries about "people". Articles about people should include "category:people". Other readers may wish to see articles about people who are researchers - so "category:researchers". Or they may want authors - "category:authors". Or famous pedophiles - "category:famous_pedophiles".

The one creating categories must anticipate the kinds of information the reader may wish to access. He must "read the mind - in advance - of the reader". Too many categories is less of a problem than too few - categories may exist but be ignored by not being linked to.

A "central index" of existing categories IS ESSENCIAL to guide editors when including/creating new categories for articles.

Then the overseers of the wiki must ensure that links highlighting categories are included in "meta" articles which can be used to familiarize the readers with what is available for reading.

Or So It Seems To Me (and many others involved in "making sense" [creating useful information] out of database data.)

Remember - not all "opinions" are informed opinions. One must learn to distinguish those whose opinions are informed from those whose are not, and give them more weight.

IMHO.

User4 (talk) 19:18, 8 April 2014 (CEST)

If I understand you correctly, then I disagree. Categories start out generalized and become more specialized as they grow. For example, Films to subcategory films with boys ages 7 to 9, films with boys 9 to 12 and so forth. Or films to subcategory films in English, films in French etc... however you have to have enough to warrant a subcategory. Also, it sort of depends what it is too. Categories that are too specific are not useful either.. ie, Chickens named Dave who crossed the road. IMHO

Also, there is a "central index" of existing categories See: Special:Categories

--Etenne (talk) 21:37, 8 April 2014 (CEST)

Agora - working or not?

Either Agora is not working correctly, or Agora is not working correctly.

I don't know which.

https://www.boywiki.org/en/Special:PrefixIndex/BoyWiki:Agora

... shows that I made a post today. That post does NOT show up when I access Agora "normally". Or am I doing something wrong?

You see that I tried twice - that explains the "double entry".

User4 (talk) 18:51, 8 April 2014 (CEST)