Talk:Etenne: Difference between revisions

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https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Pederasty
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Pederasty
*[[User:User4|User4]] ([[User talk:User4|talk]]) 01:46, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
*[[User:User4|User4]] ([[User talk:User4|talk]]) 01:46, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
== Pederasty in Ancient Greece - World Heritage Encyclopedia™ licensed under CC BY-SA ==
*Pederasty in Ancient Greece
:Sourced from World Heritage Encyclopedia™ licensed under CC BY-SA 3.0
:Help to improve this article, make contributions at the Citational Source
:3365380
*Seems high quality
*Seems unbiased
*Seems "open source" (creative commons) and therefore quotable.
:http://self.gutenberg.org/articles/Pederasty_in_ancient_Greece
*[[User:User4|User4]] ([[User talk:User4|talk]]) 02:44, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Revision as of 02:44, 15 April 2015

Subpages


To all users

It would be a good idea to review this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view

In short, the neutrality of point of view leads to an objective, "scientific" discourse, whereas non-neutrality leads to one-sided views and propaganda.

An important point is perhaps to understand that specific sympathies are not incompatible with a neutral point of view: you can like a country, a person, an amorous preference, and nevertheless be able of an objective discourse about it.

Only objectivity is credible. That's why it is vital for BoyWiki. We don't "promote", we explain and illustrate. --Etenne (talk) 12:25, 4 March 2015 (UTC)


Please ask yourself before hitting the post button

  1. Dose this have a cultural or historical relavance to boylove?
  2. By posting this are you going to make Etenne lose sleep?


Scribunto

Is there any way we can get Scribunto installed? It would come in handy for templates that invoke modules. Thanks, Lysander (talk) 10:41, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Like I told User4, right now no. All the Free Spirits techs. are working on another large project and nothing is going to get done until that is finished. From their perspective, BoyWiki is updated and secure and is not a priority right now and they have other more pressing matters to devote their limited time to fixing. --Etenne (talk) 10:47, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
Can we get it put on a list of tasks that we need done when they get the time? Lysander (talk) 18:45, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
That depends, first I would have to run it past the BoyWiki Council, then if they agree, I can ask the tech. and if he agrees then yes. --Etenne (talk) 18:52, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
Cool, thanks. Scribunto has come a long way since its first release, I think; I just installed it on a MediaWiki 24.1 installation yesterday and it worked immediately. Lysander (talk) 18:55, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
The first question I am going to get asked is, does it present any security issues? Could it be used nefariously? --Etenne (talk) 18:58, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
Well, that's what I was thinking too, but I don't know the answer. It's used on Wikimedia sites, including the English Wikipedia, so presumably they've found a way to lock it down and make it secure. Maybe it's secure right out of the box; that would be my guess. There are a lot of eyeballs looking at any code that's to be deployed on WMF sites. Also, even for extensions that aren't for deployment on WMF sites, the MediaWiki.org community is pretty security-conscious, and won't hesitate to tag extensions with a big loud warning if they are found or even suspected to have any possible security risks. Rest assured that Scribunto has no Microsoft logo.
More and more Wikipedia templates require Scribunto in order to work. For example, Template:Essay, Template:Archives, and Template:Infobox court case. I'd like to be able to copy over and use these templates. Lysander (talk) 19:05, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
I asked about adding the category tree, that's the best I can do for today. I just got out of the hospital and I am not at all well so bare with me.--Etenne (talk) 22:46, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
Oh! Take your rest, and get well soon. Thanks for making the heroic effort to be here at all. Your consistency is probably why BoyWiki still exists. Lysander (talk) 22:53, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
I posted your request to the BoyWiki council to get their input. --Etenne (talk) 22:59, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
Okay, thanks. Lysander (talk) 01:00, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Response from the Wiki council

"This extension suggests adding a programming language (lua) to the wiki, accessible by all users. Nothing less!

Some people criticize us already for using javascript as security risk, that is a wiki native language...

And how many are already using wikitext efficiently?

The same thing can be done using a sampler template that could be written without this extension."

So basically, they are not in favor of adding this extension. --Etenne (talk) 18:16, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
Okay, let me research and see if there is a way to address their concerns. There probably is. Alternatively, we can restrict editing access to the Module namespace to sysops, and have a Project:Requests for page imports page. Doing imports in that way is probably the cleanest way to bring in templates from Wikipedia anyway, because it will automatically bring in the documentation, sub-templates, etc.
By the way, here is a list of Lua stuff that for security and/or performance reasons isn't available to users using Scribunto. Lysander (talk) 20:52, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Revised proposal

Okay, can we present the Wiki Council with a revised proposal, to install Scribunto and also use $wgNamespaceProtection to restrict editing of the Module namespace to bureaucrats only (or maybe to members of some even smaller group, such as "module editors", which might consist of just one person (e.g. Etenne), as long as that person is an active user who can respond to requests for imports), so as to address security concerns? See mediawikiwiki:Manual:Preventing_access#1.10_upwards for implementation details on that.

Also, so that you can easily import templates from Wikipedia, I recommend setting: $wgImportSources[] = 'wikipedia'; For more info on how that config setting works, see mediawikiwiki:Manual:$wgImportSources. Thanks, Lysander (talk) 21:04, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Well it's like this: I can ask the Wiki Council to revisit this idea and even if they agree, I strongly suspects that the tech. staff will not... no matter how much we beg. On the other hand, they did agree to add the category tree extension (which I am very happy with BTW) and I didn't even have to suck anyone's dick to get it done :) So that is progress.... --Etenne (talk) 13:08, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
Technically they're correct that we can get by without Scribunto and create new templates from scratch to do everything that Scribunto would do. But the same argument could be made for ParserFunctions, Cite, etc. I would definitely include Scribunto on any list I were to make of the dozen or even half-dozen most essential MediaWiki extensions to have around, for the same reasons that ParserFunctions and Cite are essential, namely that they're so widely used in content one might want to import from Wikipedia.
Well, maybe wait awhile and then revisit the issue? I'm not sucking their dicks, though.. Scribunto is cool but not that cool.. :)
I would compare it to eating ass, though.. your partner might balk at first, saying "I know there's no logical reason why it would be dangerous if everything's clean, but I still don't like the thought of it." But if you keep barraging them with informative articles and explanations of the benefits for them, and saying how much it would please you and make you happy, they may eventually relent, however reluctantly. Of course, it can also be helpful to give them some time to think about it and get used to the idea.
Also, sometimes you have to accommodate counter-requests that seem unnecessary but help put them at ease. For example, a partner may say that in order to feel comfortable eating your ass, they'll need to do it in the shower just to have maximum assurance that everything is clean. I would compare that to making the Module namespace open to editing by sysops only. Lysander (talk) 17:05, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Bad faith

I notice that sex offender treatment programs, and the general public, tend to regard pedophiles as making arguments in bad faith. In fact, if you're someone who expresses sympathy with pedophiles and supportive of sexual freedom, they'll assume you're a pedophile selfishly seeking excuses to molest kids, because what else could explain support for such views? However, it's assumed that people who make contrary arguments act selflessly.

Isn't it normally assumed that all interest groups act selfishly, and that there's nothing wrong with this? It's assumed that in a democracy, everything will be okay because the majority will keep in check any minority factions that want to promote their own selfish views at the expense of society. But the majority, too, will do this out of selfishness.

What it comes down to is that people treat this issue differently than other issues because they have a hatred of pedophiles, regardless of whether or not they commit any crimes. They hate age-of-consent activists, not so much because they worry that they will succeed in lowering the age of consent, but because they believe "only a pedophile would make that argument" and because they hate pedophiles, they hate anyone who would make that argument.

It's not that they believe that making pro-pedophilia arguments will convince more people to commit offenses. Because after all, they believe "only a pedophile would make that argument"; therefore, it's impossible that a propensity to commit sex offenses would spread through argumentation, since only people who are already pedophiles are susceptible to believing those arguments. (They also don't believe in pedophiles' ability to refrain from committing sex offenses, even though they say that it's a choice to commit those offenses.)

The clinicians have a different attitude than the general public; they believe that through treatment, the risk of offending can be reduced. But they still believe that the risk will always be high enough that these patients will need to be intrusively monitored, and their liberty restricted. In the end, they pretty much hate pedophiles too, but they work within the framework of a system that usually releases sex offenders back into the population eventually. Lysander (talk) 21:13, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

"They have god on their side". Case closed... User4 (talk) 23:08, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Collateral damage

I was thinking, maybe one of the reasons why people hate pedophiles is because of the collateral damage from the war on pedophilia that has affected non-pedophiles. It's similar to how there was collateral damage from the war on homosexuality. Guys were afraid to hug or otherwise show affection toward each other, for fear of being considered gay, or arousing suspicions that they were gay. They also had to reject any other kinds of behaviors, mannerisms, styles of dress, etc. that might seem gay. To ward off any possible suspicions, they had to seem as anti-gay as possible at every opportunity by bashing homosexuality and homosexuals. Also, they probably resented the self-censorship and restrictions on their behavior that were necessary in order to put forth a certain appearance.

It's the same way with pedophilia. People are scared to death of arousing suspicions of being a pedophile. So they feel they can't show affection to children, for instance (e.g. by physical touch, buying them gifts, etc.), because of what people might think. To deflect any possible suspicion as much as they can, they bash pedophiles and pedophilia every chance they get. They resent having to censor themselves from showing even non-sexual love for children, and they blame it on pedophiles.

Once it became okay to be gay, there was no need for heterosexuals to try to avoid any gay-seeming behaviors, because even if someone were to draw the incorrect conclusion that they were gay, it wouldn't matter. Likewise, once it becomes okay to be a pedophile, it won't matter if someone mistakes a non-pedophile's gestures of non-sexual love for a child as motivated by pedophilia. We will all be freer to be ourselves, regardless of our orientation. Lysander (talk) 22:08, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Here's a little (academic) test for you...

Why is the category "Scientific literature" (which I believe you created) actually erroneous? User4 (talk) 23:39, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Easy because it should be "Academic literature" but I believe that it was you who requested I create that category and I likely did not want to argue with you over something that trivial. I know that Scientific literature actually means scientific journals and periodicals etc. As always, you are free to add your own categories as appropriate and I really hate categorizing other peoples work but since no one here seems to understand [[Category:MY TOPIC]] I am forced to add topics that I know nothing about to categories, that I care less about..then listen to you bitch because you are unhappy. I suggest if you want it in the right category.... you learn to understand our category structure and do it yourself! --Etenne (talk) 00:09, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
'Easy because it should be "Academic literature"'
Nope. Sorry, but that is the wrong answer. Try again.
"As always, you are free to add your own categories as appropriate..."
Is that a lie, or are you simply giving a twisted version of the truth? Articles that I have included in several categories - one of which was "Encyclopedia," you have then gone back and removed the Encyclopedia category.
So, I am "free to add [my] own categories as appropriate," and you are "free to arbitrarily decide that the Encyclopedia category is 'not appropriate'" and remove it.
Then - how could it be that I am "free to add categories" (and Encyclopedia is indeed an "appropriate" category) given that you will just remove that category?
Lest you forget: Easy because it should be "Academic literature" is not the correct answer. Try again. User4 (talk) 01:35, 19 March 2015 (UTC)


Well, I've felt some guilt over leaving stuff uncategorized. But it's tougher here than on Wikipedia. Wikipedia already has an established category scheme covering several million articles, so it's relatively easy to fit new articles into that scheme by looking for related articles or typing part of a possible category into HotCat and seeing what it suggests. Also, there are plenty of wikignomes on Wikipedia who love spending all their time categorizing other people's articles. Here, we don't always have those advantages. Also, BoyWiki's categorization scheme is a little eccentric. Maybe there's a help page about categorization somewhere? Help:Categories?
@Lysander: "A little eccentric?" That is a masterful understatement.
There are a lot of sites with unusual schemes; for example, Mises Wiki has an argumentation namespace. Sometimes I wonder if BoyWiki could benefit from something like that, but it would depend on users' being willing to contribute content to it. Lysander (talk) 05:12, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
There are BoyWiki users who sometimes dump a bunch of text into mainspace and expect others to clean it up, or maybe they figured they were going to clean it up themselves later, when they got around to it. I think to myself, couldn't they have at least written a decent, properly formatted first sentence summarizing what the article is about? But whatever, I take one for the team by fixing it. Lysander (talk) 00:31, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
Frankly, Just add it to the a new and most generic 2ed level or third level category you can think of. Right now, we don't have enough entries for "French artists from the 1800's born in Paris". --Etenne (talk) 00:38, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
Can we also request installation of CategoryTree? It could make it easier and quicker to explore the categories and find out what's there. Lysander (talk) 00:46, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
The problem is that it was designed for Wikipedia and many of our categories may be more BL specific. I wish I know an easy way to do this or had one one of them guys who enjoy that sort of thing. I will think about it and maybe when I am less tired and have less on my mind... I might come up with something. --Etenne (talk) 01:05, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
I haven't noticed a problem with it on wikis other than Wikipedia. Lysander (talk) 01:49, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Categories

Maybe one way to encourage users to categorize pages is to, when adding categories, note the category in the edit summary, like in this edit. Then casual browsers of Special:RecentChanges will get an idea of what categories are available and be more likely to use the right ones. It occurs to me that edit summaries are a convenient way to communicate that sort of information to all users of a small wiki like this one, since everyone will see it even if they don't look at the diff.

Maybe edit summaries represent an underutilized opportunity in other ways, too. For example, I normally leave it blank when I'm expanding an article, but if the edit is adding a fact that I want to bring to the attention of all users (including those who might not have taken an interest in that article yet), that could be a quick way to tell them about it. Lysander (talk) 02:38, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

In Reality.

Hey, you guys. In reality, is Wikipedia a factual and trustworthy resource on the internet? The ultimate goal of Wiki is to be a "sum of all human knowledge". I am just wondering here whether it is a reliable resource of information to improve pages on this Wiki? Lister34 (talk) 04:24, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Jimbo wrote, 'Remember, an encyclopedia is not a data dump. The word "sum" has a purpose in that statement... an encyclopedia is not "all human knowledge" it is the "sum" of all human knowledge. It is specifically delimited for very good reasons.' Inevitably some information is lost when you only keep the sum of a bunch of numbers and discard the numbers themselves. Lysander (talk) 04:38, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
Thank you. could you please explain what you are tring to state here, Lysander? Lister34 (talk) 05:35, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
Where Wikipedia lies or misleads, it's mostly by omission rather than commission. That's part of the reason why BoyWiki exists. Lysander (talk) 05:45, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
Mabe, could you list some of the times in which Wikipedia has done these things that you are talking about here? Lister34 (talk) 08:29, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
For example, the deletion of certain articles (see the Wikipedia article for examples). Also, the ArbCom banning of users for expressing dissident views off-wiki; who knows what articles they would've written by now if they hadn't been banned. Those users usually migrate over to wikis like BoyWiki, or wherever else they can find safe haven, so a comparison of the articles we have here to what exists on Wikipedia will give you an idea of what Wikipedia is missing. Also, when the banned users sock at Wikipedia, their articles are deleted. It creates systemic bias. Lysander (talk) 21:32, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
Hi Lister34. I have made some comments regarding problems with the Wikipedia article within a copy of the article saved here: https://www.boywiki.org/en/USER4/DRAFT/Pedophile_Wikipedia_article_criticism Perhaps those (few) comments will be useful to you in understanding some of the bias within the article. User4 (talk) 22:38, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
Hello, thank you User4. Just a question. Is your page about the criticism of Wikipedia"s article about pedophilia changed or updated to match recent changes to the article?Lister34 (talk) 04:01, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
I believe that I used the most recent version of the article, but I could be mistaken. Why do you ask? User4 (talk) 04:20, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

I think you are doing an excellent job at BW, for the most part.

I may bitch and whine about some things, things that I feel are very important. That's my nature -- to try to improve things.

But I am amazed, when I look at BW as a whole, the great stuff that you are doing, and your knowledge of things that I know absolutely nothing about (and have no interest in learning, either)!

Please take my comments and criticisms in the spirit with which they are meant -- which is to make BW better, and not to attack or criticize you personally (though sometimes that is how they may appear).

I hope you feel better soon. I know it's a drag when things go wrong with one's body. Why, I myself am currently suffering from... oh, wait... who cares about that? I just hope I live long enough to finish all the stuff that I have already started...

Anyway, best of luck with everything! User4 (talk) 19:03, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Totally hypothetical question

If we lived in an alternate universe in which there were no laws against child porn, would BoyWiki allow non-sysops to upload images? Lysander (talk) 21:58, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't know. Maybe in that Universe, people would have learned to accept and respect each others differences and there would be no BoyWiki as we would all be one great big human family. --Etenne (talk) 10:01, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
Well, prior to 1982 (New York v. Ferber), there was still an age of consent, but there were much more robust constitutional protections of free speech. We are, in a way, on great big human family already, since we all come from the same genetic lineage; it's just an abusive family with domineering patriarchs and matriarchs. :) But the kids get rebellious sometimes and are able to successfully get away with doing what they want sometimes. Lysander (talk) 16:25, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Categorization

It seems like it would be useful to categorize the U.S. states as Category:States of the United States and then perhaps make that a subcategory of Category:United States of America. We should eventually have articles for all 50 states, plus Puerto Rico and other commonwealths, territories, etc. Lysander (talk) 18:16, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

RE: State by state rape and abuse laws file

United_States_state_by_state_rape_and_abuse_laws is a much larger file than necessary, due to it being in .HTML format instead of wiki format.

Could you possibly run it through that online "convert .HTML to wiki" thingy, to reduce the file size? I can't do it myself because of my browser configuration (and I don't want to mess with how my browser is configured - it is finally working fairly correctly). User4 (talk) 11:21, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I can give that a try. I will try to get to that today before I have to leave out...if not... when I get home latter. --Etenne (talk) 11:35, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
I need the page source for this... I need to take a look at what it is suppose to look like.--Etenne (talk) 12:04, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
I published a list of information, and simple lists of information cannot be copyrighted. All the information quoted is in the public domain, as they are state laws: http://www.arte-sana.com/articles/rape_statutes.pdf User4 (talk) 12:37, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
OK, I took a look and I can do that. I thought there might be extra boxes. It might take me a day or so to fix it up ( And make it all pretty:). --Etenne (talk) 12:48, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Before putting too much time into it, we might consider finding/creating an updated list. Those laws were the ones in effect 12 to 14 years ago, and many of those laws have been changed - and made even more draconian! User4 (talk) 13:43, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
I can also help you with this sort of thing, if you just need reformatting done. The most important thing, when updating lists, is to make sure you give a citation to the code section so people can check it later and verify that it hasn't changed. For example, the age of consent article lists a lot of ages of consent with no citations, and I have frequently run into articles that contradicted that information. But I couldn't tell right off the bat which was the more current information.
Also, if it does change, and you happen to know the legislative history behind its changing, that's helpful to note in the U.S. state article. The U.S. state articles should ideally not only say what the law is but also describe the politics behind how those laws got to be what they are now. That's useful information for activists, scholars, etc. Lysander (talk) 16:02, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

RE: Changes to software that may entail security risks

If what we now are using works (and given that we are not exactly overloaded with user input at this point) I think we should stick with the software we have, and not have to worry about even potential security risks with newer software. "Better Safe than Sorry."

And when we are talking about "security" we don't simply mean risking having to click on the "undo" button of an article that was tampered with (or even -- in the worst-case scenario -- having to re-upload the entire wiki's contents from a backup).

When someone's personal security is at risk (their real-life identity, their livelihood, their relationships with friends and neighbors, etc.) there is no "undo" button to click on. User4 (talk) 04:07, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

What "newer software" are you talking about? Lysander (talk) 04:32, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
I am not sure what you mean by "undo button" as this can be found under "View history". However, I am too lazy to log out right now to see if that is an option only available to Admins like the "Deleted user contributions" button. --Etenne (talk) 13:41, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
@Lysander: You post elsewhere:
Install Scribunto and also use $wgNamespaceProtection to restrict editing of the Module namespace to sysops only, so as to address security concerns.
... and when I suggest not installing software that may involve security risks, you say, "What "newer software" are you talking about?" I mean, just how disingenuous can a person be?
BTW -- when are you going to become a Sysop at BoyWiki? Soon?
@Etenne: By "undue button" I mean the, for example, (undo)
DON'T CLICK ON THAT LINK! (unless you want to undo all the work that went into making that file!)
I meant that if a person's life is destroyed because he is "outed" there is no (undo) for him to "click" on. If an unscrupulous (or just plain stupid) person were to become a Sysop here at BoyWiki, and if Scribunto were installed, the potential exists for an exploit that could compromise the security of visitors and users at BoyWiki, leading to their "outing" -- which no (undo) exists to remedy. User4 (talk) 02:29, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
So maybe, instead of restricting the editing of that namespace to sysops, restrict it to bureaucrats, or some even smaller group of users (e.g. "developers" or "techs" or something). Etenne could be made the only member of that group, if that's deemed desirable. It just needs to be someone who is actively involved in the wiki and can respond to requests for imports. Lysander (talk) 03:15, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

To all BoyWiki users:Naming

The convention for naming pages is that articles should be singular whereas categories should be plural.

  • Names of topics and topic categories should be singular, normally corresponding to the name of a BoyWiki. article. Examples: "Law" (which represents a body of knowledge), "France", "George W. Bush".
  • Names of set categories should be plural. Examples: "Writers", "Villages in Poland".

However, I am willing to hear counter arguments to this practice or suggestions before deciding what the policy should be --Etenne (talk) 13:17, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Just yesterday I noticed that Wikipedia has categories with a singular title, e.g. wikipedia:Category:Vagina. Also, there are some plural article titles, e.g.wikipedia:Jews. Lysander (talk) 15:13, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
You can't figure out what those two (obvious, at least, to me) errors are due to? Uh... You certainly make up in glibness what you lack in perspicacity. User4 (talk) 02:37, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
Enlighten me. Lysander (talk) 03:16, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
Hey! You didn't enlighten me about what those two errors are due to. Lysander (talk) 04:10, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Deletion summaries

So that users browsing RecentChanges can tell at a glance what is going on, and so that posterity browsing through Special:Logs/delete without knowledge of what's happening on the wiki now can understand the reasons why, I recommend using informative deletion summaries. Revising MediaWiki:Deletereason-dropdown to list the most common deletion reasons, if it doesn't already, can be a way to do this without putting in a lot of effort. Thanks, Lysander (talk) 02:16, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

There, Etenne, are you happy now?

Almost two hours of my life shot to hell writing BoyLovers_and_their_travels_around_the_world. And now my fingers are aching, I'm so hungry I could even eat a Big Mac, and if I don't go and piss soon, my eyes are going to turn yellow! I sure hope it was all worth it! User4 (talk) 22:31, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Defining boylove

It's been said that love "is a short word, easy to spell, difficult to define, and impossible to live without." It's such an elusive and complicated concept that the Greeks came up with many different words to describe its different forms, including agápe, éros, philia, storge, (philo)xenia, latreia, etaireia, eusplahneia, omoria, pathos, pothos and piste.

There are prostitutes who put love and respect into their care for their clients, and clients who are the same way toward their prostitutes. I knew a prostitute whose customers would blow up their (the prostitute was androgynous and genderqueer) phone all the time, even after they left the area, because the clients got addicted/attached to that particular prostitute. On the other hand, there are couples, whose sexual relationships aren't considered commercial, who don't treat each other with much love and respect.

It's a great step in the right direction to not look down on other people for having relationships with people outside their age group. But what about also not looking down on people for having commercial sexual relationships? Are we going to define love in such a way as to exclude those relationships from qualifying as "loving"?

Sad to say, some guys are lonely and can't find anyone who will have sex with them unless they're helping out that person financially. That's as close an experience as they get to love. And maybe it would even fall under some of those Greek categories of love.

They don't want to exploit anyone; they just want human touch and affection. And maybe some of them also have an attraction to young people. Are they bad people for having all those qualities? In many western countries, society has set up all sorts of divisions between the generations so that it's hard to have access to kids unless you're a family member, teacher, etc. or you engage in risky activities such as looking for kids online. Therefore, it's understandable that some people wanting to have sexual relationships with children (whether long-term or short-term) would go to other countries, where young and older people mingle more freely. Lysander (talk) 22:58, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Would you please advise the other editors

Would you please advise the other editors not to edit my contributions until I have had a chance to work on them myself for awhile?

I understand all the "edited unmercifully" stuff, but still -- when I create an article I should have the right to work on it awhile without others jumping in and making major modifications, shouldn't I? If I were to do the same to some of the absolute **** being created by others recently, I'm afraid it would be "likely to cause problems" -- something that I'm sure we all wish to avoid. No? User4 (talk) 03:57, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

You could use Template:Inuse or something. Or create it in the draft namespace or your userspace and then move it. By the way, you could've come to me directly, and I would've told you the same thing, which might have resolved this without needing to involve a third person. Lysander (talk) 04:09, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Learned helplessness

One of our editors seems determined, by his article submissions, to foster Learned Helplessness among visitors to BoyWiki.

This is "providing aid and assistance to the enemy," and goes against the very reason that BoyWiki exists!

Is treason "sufficient cause" for excluding such an editor?

User4 (talk) 15:08, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm getting really sick of this jerk

He moves things around without asking first.

He renames things at his whim (to incorrect names)

He creates articles that harm BoyWiki, and give BoyLovers a bad name.

He edits the text of other users' comments. (YOU could have moved my comment from that "Frank" page, but you didn't. He decided he knows better than you.)

He has vandalized a number of my pages already, either removing material that is actually relevant, or doing other stupid and absurd things.

He has made himself into a new Sysop here - he does whatever he wants to do. And, no, some of what he does CANNOT be "undone". Where is the stuff he removed from the O'Carrol "Radical case" book article? It appears to be gone forever -- I spent 2 hours trying to find it. It is GONE!

And, to top it all, I now refuse to read whatever comments he makes. He does not respond to questions from me, he changes the topic instead of responding, he refuses to admit when he makes a mistake (and he makes a lot of mistakes), etc. etc. So, reading (or responding) to his comments (for the most part) is a complete waste of time.

TELL THAT ASSHOLE TO KEEP HIS FUCKING HANDS OFF OF MY SUBMISSIONS!

It would have been nicer if you had said "I'm getting really sick of this user's behavior". Also, if you wanted to provide a deletion rationale on the page itself (rather than its talk page), you should've done that as a parameter to a suitable template, e.g. Template:Prod or Template:Delete.
Unfortunately, I'm now pretty much wiki-homeless. I have nowhere to go, where (1) I haven't been kicked off, and (2) my content is within the project scope. Basically, what happens is, I get labelled as being part of group X, and therefore group Y doesn't like me because group Y hates group X; but group X will say "we don't like him either; he's not really one of us and we don't want to be associated with him."
It kinda reminds me of NAMBLA. Homophobes hate NAMBLA because the Bible says sex between males is bad. But the mainstream gay movement hates NAMBLA too, because they don't want to be associated with pedophilia. Everyone else who might otherwise be sympathetic to NAMBLA just ignores them because they figure, "I better not defend them, or people will think I'm one of them." Lysander (talk) 18:12, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Scribunto

Brad Jorsch writes, "Lua is particularly well-designed for sandboxing, and was thoroughly reviewed by Tim Starling, who is one of the WMF's top security and performance experts, as part of the process of developing Scribunto. When using the standalone interpreter, only a simple "server" runs in the full environment; most Scribunto code is loaded in a sandbox that has all "dangerous" functions removed, and user code is further loaded in another sandbox within the sandbox. When using the luasandbox PHP extension, the "dangerous" functions are not loaded into the Lua interpreter in the first place, and user code is still loaded within an inner sandbox.

"With the standalone interpreter, memory and CPU time limits are enforced using Linux's ulimit mechanism, while with the luasandbox PHP extension they are built into the extension itself. As for "The same thing can be done using a s[i]mpler template that could be written without this extension", if that's actually true for your situation then you may not actually need Scribunto. But on Wikipedia and other WMF projects, there were many templates (particularly things like "substr") that are now much faster and simpler with Scribunto, and there are other things that have been done with Scribunto that were effectively impossible before." Lysander (talk) 23:21, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

RE: Usefulness of the new article, "Issues in Child Abuse Accusations (with abstracts) "

If someone should happen to have an interest in legal issues surrounding so-called "child abuse," then this list provide a plethora of (relatively) unbiased articles which can be drawn upon when creating new articles for BoyWiki -- articles which would then be of value to BoyWiki.

Instead of so much of the recent crap that has been recently added as "legal articles". ;)

How about a little rationality here with regards to all these recent "bits and pieces" articles?

How come all those little these bits and pieces about "child porn" and "child trafficking" etc. etc. that have been appearing on BoyWiki lately, and which claim (without being warranted) to have the status of "articles" (though they contain very little information of any real value), are not simply incorporated into the main Child abuse article or the Child pornography article, where they really belong?

And, BTW, does that annoying "You have new messages from another user" thing ever just go away? I mean, in the morning my alarm clock eventually stops ringing when I ignore it. I think that message should just go away, too, if I ignore it and don't read any of those messages.

Merging and redirecting is always an option. As for the notification, just click on it and then navigate away without reading the messages. Lysander (talk) 18:21, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

"You don't need to have any experience in making Web sites or writing HTML: it's as easy as making a post on your favorite message board."

RE: Correct namespaces

What do you want - valuable articles that get people thinking and learning, or crap that is "in the correct name space" but doesn't? Huh?

I'll make a deal with you - I'll write the good stuff, and you deal with the "namespaces," OK?

And tell that yo-yo that snide remarks are not in the best interest of BoyWiki, especially when coming from someone who contributes little of real value but directs those snide remarks at someone who does "add value" to BoyWiki.

(Move log); 05:09 . . Lysander (Talk | contribs) moved page USER4/DRAFT/Save our children from the abnormfoodexuals! to User:User4/DRAFT/Save our children from the abnormfoodexuals! ‎(another failure to get the namespace and username correct (it's case sensitive))

Hey -- "User4 posts good, like a user should."

So what do you want - good grammar or good articles?

Essays, articles, and dummies who criticize others without thinking first...

  • "Lysander (Talk | contribs)‎ (Created page with "Who wrote this? User4? There should be an essay box template used that gives attribution and lets the user know at a glance that they're reading an essay rather than anything.."

This (what he probably considers to be a valid) "comment" about what is (very obviously -- as well as categorized as such) an essay demonstrates that at least one of our "users" here is not "all on the ball"...

"Who wrote this?" he asks "User4?"

It seems he doesn't even know how to view the "history" page of articles, either.

Why doesn't that user fix all the many many many problems with the (so-called) "articles" that he has submitted, before criticizing the submissions of others? That "Frank" junk article he submitted is still full of errors, none of which (I believe) he has corrected yet.

Oh, and by the way...

Now, what is still wrong with his Frank article?
I'm confused, so if there's anything in that article that can be fixed, please fix it; otherwise, I guess we can just delete it. Lysander (talk) 21:17, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Capitalization of article titles

There is and/or has been confusion regarding what should be the "correct" capitalization of words within titles of articles, particularly when the article is about a publication such as a book. A large number of redirects have been created.

This means that links to articles may become "broken" should these redirects be deleted. This then requires that a large number of articles be edited to fix the "broken links". This problem also makes articles look unprofessional -- the visitors expect given links to function, and when the links do not function, the editor of the article appears incompetent. How can we avoid these kinds of problems?

By fixing, rather than deleting, double redirects. Also, we should establish a site-wide standard concerning capitalization, if it doesn't exist already. Lysander (talk) 15:59, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

(Potentially) Dangerous changes made by (perhaps) unwitting pseudo-sysops

The following could be an extremely serious threat to the personal security of visitors who do not understand how e-mail works, how their IP address can be collected and compromised, and how LEO gather information.

https://www.boywiki.org/en/User:Lysander/EmailAllChanges

I suggest that a tech person (who -- I know -- is unavailable) immediately review the wisdom of BoyWiki endangering visitors with this kind of "honeypot"-type facility.

THIS IS NOT A JOKE!

This is very dangerous! And there should be a review of the access to editing rights of any user who attempts this kind of thing on BoyWiki without first consulting with the sysop!

Well, no changes have been made. No one can make changes to the software with out access to the server. Believe me no one is going to make dangerous changes to the wiki and BTW, the wiki doesn't even record your IP. If a mistake was made, all someone would see is a random number --Etenne (talk) 23:48, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

What is this website's stance on pedophilia and sexual attractions to prepubscents?

He, What is this website's stance on pedophilia and sexual attraction toward prepubescents? I would like to know. Thank s.. Lister34 (talk) 03:57, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

That a boylover is a boylover. I try to make BoyWiki as inclusive as I can however as an Ephebophile, BoyWiki very likely over represents my POV. --Etenne (talk) 09:13, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

This day in gay history

This link gives hits to a blog that gives info perhaps useful to your Date entries:

Templates

One way to encourage people to finish articles that were left in an untidy state is to use maintenance templates, which will automatically categorize those pages. Then when people are bored, they can look through those categories for stuff in need of more work. Lysander (talk) 02:37, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Please stop right now and take a look at this immediately -- Thanks.

https://www.boywiki.org/en/Pederastic_relationships_in_history_TEST

Yes, thank you. I can use that as some of the references are somewhat confusing for my old brain (without something to reference myself). I can merge the two. --Etenne (talk) 12:01, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
I (almost) hesitate to add that I fixed all the 240+ references in that article I did in only about an hour and a half of work (and taking into account that I'm in a dead tired zombie state right now), while you have spent days on your version. How about I teach you some better editing techniques, huh?
I forgot to add this -- I can fix all the links to point to the original article (hoping that it will remain on the internet) and readers will be able to see all the other material the article references (and some of that information does need to be extracted and integrated into our article, too).
THERE HAS ALSO BEEN PREPARED A PDF VERSION OF THIS FILE, AVAILABLE AT:
HISTORICAL PEDERASTIC RELATIONSHIPS.pdf (283kB)

... that may be useful to you Etenne when editing, and perhaps as a supplement for folks to download.

Etenne, please talk to me about editing techniques. I hate to see you spend time doing unnecessary work when your time can be spent better on other things, OK?

You keep saying that but you don't add anything about editing techniques... I assume they are not top secret?:) --Etenne (talk) 20:08, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
I had a bunch of notes prepared in response, and some links as well, but the links were bad (sites were down or have vanished from the Internet) and while researching to find archived copies of those things (which took about an hour of my time), I then overloaded my system and it crashed. A reboot was necessary. When I came back online, I ran across some other things that were fairly quick and easy to do (you saw the new articles) so I went ahead and did those as I felt they were very important, interesting, and useful for visitors.
Are you going to use
*https://www.boywiki.org/en/Pederasty_in_ancient_Greece
If so, I can use that as an example of easier editing with regards to fixing the note refs.
Are you going to use
*https://www.boywiki.org/en/Pederasty_in_ancient_Greece

Yes, no, maybe... right now, I have more to do that I will ever have time to finish.

So feel free to use that as an example.--Etenne (talk) 16:13, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

OK. First you need the really great (free) editor Notetab.exe, but the NoteTab light free version.
It only works if you are using Microsoft Windows. If you are not then it becomes more complicated -- you need to install Wine on a Unix system to use it.
There is a copy here:
http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/view.php?id=7535721&da=y
but it is NOT a .ZIP file, it is the NoteTab light setup file. It has been renamed to a .ZIP file because that site does not allow .EXE files. So it was renamed.
The site of the creator of the NoteTab programs -- NoteTab pro and NotTabe light -- is for some reason not available. Here is a link to their archived site which tells about their product:
Download the file (NT.ZIP) from the keepandshare link above, and rename it to NoteTab_Light_Setup.exe. Then run the .EXE file to install NoteTab Light on your computer.
Are you with me so far?

Aren't there a lot of better alternatives? I like Notepad++. On Ubuntu, I use Komodo Edit. Lysander (talk) 17:47, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Tell me what is next on your agenda to do, OK?

You should download the NoteTab light program as I said. There's another one (right up your alley!) called Editeur.exe (C'est très bien, mon ami!) but it only works in Windows XP and not later versions. But how can I advise you if you won't give me feedback!

Thank you

It is kind of you to clean up the material I am importing. The fact is that my eyesight has grown a lot weaker since the days I was editing Wikipedia, and I just do not have the stamina to spend long hours at the screen in the evening, as I did then. One request, I would like someone to bring in THIS image from wikipedia for the Athenian pederasty article I just uploaded: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/dc/Love_gift_-_Calyx_krater_Aegisthos_painter_ca_460_BCE.jpg

Also, as an alternative to deleting the categories at the end of the articles, they could be created here in this wiki.

Another idea to discuss with the others. The English predominance of this wiki is perhaps not in anyone's best interest. Would you consider renaming it Paiswiki? It is also less ostentatious when working on it at the local cafe. Call that the "Starbucks test." Someone should be able to stare at your screen and have no idea what the hell you are doing. Haiduc (talk) 23:04, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

I think we already have that image. I will look for it and if not I will add it tomorrow. According to some the name is already Etenne wiki:)--Etenne (talk) 23:43, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

here it is File:AEGISTHOS PAINTER -460c Love gift (Kunsthistorisches Museum Wien IV-1102) 852x1030.jpg

Tools an editor needs to save time

OK. First you need the really great (free) editor Notetab.exe, but the NoteTab light free version.

It only works if you are using Microsoft Windows. If you are not then it becomes more complicated -- you need to install Wine on a Unix system to use it.

There is a copy here:

http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/view.php?id=7535721&da=y

but it is NOT a .ZIP file, it is the NoteTab light setup file. It has been renamed to a .ZIP file because that site does not allow .EXE files. So it was renamed.

The site of the creator of the NoteTab programs -- NoteTab pro and NotTabe light -- is for some reason not available. Here is a link to their archived site which tells about their product:

http://web.archive.org/web/20150331003554/http://www.notetab.com/

Download the file (NT.ZIP) from the keepandshare link above, and rename it to NoteTab_Light_Setup.exe. Then run the .EXE file to install NoteTab Light on your computer.

Are you with me so far?

User4 (talk) 17:18, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

I can take you step-by-step through fixing this new article

This is the "raw" conversion:

https://www.boywiki.org/en/Pederasty_in_the_modern_world

We can do the article together (how romantic!) and you can see how it is done. OK?

I just dug up the original, at time of deletion. Check it out, it should make your lives easier. Haiduc (talk) 00:10, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Do you have an text editor that handles carriage returns (CR) and line feed (LF) in search/replace functions?

If for some reason you don't want to download the NoteTab light program linked to above, before I put in all the time to search for an alternative, I need to know if you have some such editor, which would help immensely in your editing of files for BoyChat. I also have noticed that you have not responded to earlier posts of mine here on your talk page, and I can't help but wonder if there is any specific reason for that.

It's not that... just like you, I have been very busy in the last few days and I don't see it getting any better for at least a week. Plus with my recent health problems, it's not been a fun time for me. One of the BoyWiki admins just pointed out to me that on fr.boywiki there are a few entries on Japan that could be translated and added... which he feels are better qulity then what we have now... how's your french? :)
I have a way with languages... part of my "magic" you might say... Links, please? (I hope the articles are not very long... I'd really like to finish some other stuff I'm in the middle of)...
The Japan article is in your hands now, at least for the magic that you can do that I don't know how to. I won't touch it until you finish fixing what you can, OK?
Happy now? Do I get a cookie for being a good boy?
Yes, it looks like I am going to be in Japan for a few days to correct the code and then I need to go back and read the original French and correct some of the translation errors. And to be quite frank, my French is getting a bit rusty as I don't use it as much as I should. --Etenne (talk) 10:43, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
You may want to open each of the following URLs in a separate browser tab, along with the English BoyWiki Japan page in another for editing. If you want, I can fix the translation errors -- I may be faster at fixing them than you (or you may be faster at that than I am -- I don't really know).

Questioning the wisdom of encouraging users to reveal their e-mail addresses to BoyWiki (and potentially, to LEO)

Were this implemented, users could inadvertently expose themselves to being "outed".

https://www.boywiki.org/en/User:Lysander/EmailAllChanges

Template:Unsigned

If you're going to question that, then what about Special:RequestAccount, which also has an optional e-mail address field? Lysander (talk) 02:57, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Hack to avoid Wikipedia harvesting of IP addresses of BoyWiki readers who follow external links

Unintended consequences: disabling the {{w|}} template just corrupted the text of I-don't-know-how-many pages.

Here's an example:

  • Here is a test sentence containing an imbedded link to the wikipedia article on {{w|test}} to demonstrate the new problem of text corruption.
  • Here is a test sentence containing an imbedded link to the wikipedia article on test to demonstrate the new problem of text corruption.

I just did a quick check and there may be over 130 instances of the text corruption problem in various articles (not 130 articles, but 130 instances).

Linking can be made safe. See how I did the "External links" on the following page:


Sociogenesis or Sociogenesis

BoyWiki Russian roulette, one of these is an internal link and one is an external link (can you tell the difference?) make a choice. --Etenne (talk) 02:38, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

I see the difference. What do you suggest doing about it? User4 (talk) 02:59, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

130 instances exactly... if there were only a few it would be less of a problem but this is out of hand... --Etenne (talk) 02:50, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it's a serious problem, if Wikipedia is harvesting the IP addresses of those following embedded links. If you take BW offline, edit the exported .XML file of the entire site, then import it, you could fix the problem in an hour or two instead of taking days.
Etenne, when it comes to security for Internet users, either something is a serious problem that must be addressed or it is not a problem. There is nothing in-between.
Either we take all possible steps to stop Wikipedia (and other sites) from detecting that the visitor to their site has clicked a link in a BoyWiki article, and prevent them from IP address harvesting, or else we don't worry about it at all. There is no "middle ground" on this.
So, which is it?

Would referer hiding solve this problem? I could write an extension, if necessary, to implement this on all external links. By the way, one of the downsides of using external links instead of interwiki links is that it trips the CAPTCHA each time. Lysander (talk) 05:24, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

I believe the modifications that Lysander has made to Template:W are sufficient to solve the problem. People can now see that it is an external link and can make a choice as to whether they want to click on it or not. Again, I want to stress that the use of this template within a paragraph text is not the best editing practice and I would give preference to making internal links or if necessary use [1] or make the link a reference. --Etenne (talk) 10:20, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
I notice too, from this page, that it's the browser that sends the HTTP referer header. So the user can set up their browser to not send these headers even if we don't use rel=noreferrer. It's also possible to use this hack. By the way, interwiki links on most wikis are a slightly different color than regular wikilinks, so I wonder if BoyWiki has a non-standard setup with regard to that? There might be a way to fix that issue, e.g. by changing the CSS. Lysander (talk) 20:04, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

A few interesting graphic files you may want to use on BW are at commons.wikimedia.org

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Pederasty

Pederasty in Ancient Greece - World Heritage Encyclopedia™ licensed under CC BY-SA

  • Pederasty in Ancient Greece
Sourced from World Heritage Encyclopedia™ licensed under CC BY-SA 3.0
Help to improve this article, make contributions at the Citational Source
3365380
  • Seems high quality
  • Seems unbiased
  • Seems "open source" (creative commons) and therefore quotable.
http://self.gutenberg.org/articles/Pederasty_in_ancient_Greece
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